GEM: (3) Why is it that women and what they can contribute are so undervalued in the world today?

Ms. Abzug: Well, it's a long history of a long culture, a culture essentially developed by one part of the population for the benefit, largely--let's put it this way, which has based itself on a role of women which no longer exists. [The culture has seen women] as a subordinate group that are around to take care of the house and the kids and that's all. That isn't the way it is any more with women. Women are mothers as well as workers in the economies of countries all over the world. The laws and the cultures developed under entirely different conditions when women didn't work outside and were almost considered property of males. The families in some cultures--as well as the husbands--are going to have to be changed. And that's a process that's very, very hard.

Also, it's interesting, although there's been a fairly strong women's movement since the 1920s, and the renaissance of that movement in the 1970s, women don't want to be mainstreamed into a polluted stream. We want to change the nature of the stream, to use a metaphor, we want to make it clean and flowing for everyone. So some progress has been made in that period, but it has not been sufficient to uproot some of the cultures and the traditions and the practices that people are accustomed to. For example, I've been out of law school for over 50 years. When I went to law school, [of law students, women] were only 2%. In fact it was so bad that when I applied to Harvard, because I was told it was the best law school, Harvard had the nerve to turn me down just because I was a woman. And they didn't take women for ten years after that. Turns out I went to Columbia and got a scholarship and managed to become a lawyer despite that.

When I went to represent my law firm anywhere--I was a young kid just out of college--I said, "How do you do? I'm Bella Abzug from the law firm of such and such," and people would say, "Yes, fine, fine, sit down." So I'd wait and nothing much would happen, so finally I'd clear my throat and say, "I'm Bella Abzug from the law firm of such and such," and they'd say, "Yes, we know, but we're waiting." I'd say, "What are we waiting for?" And they'd say, "We're waiting for the lawyer." They thought I was the secretary. So I had this identity crisis. I went home and discussed it with my husband, Marvin. In those days professional women wore hats--and gloves, so I put on gloves and a hat. And every time I went anywhere for business, with the hat and gloves, they knew I was there for business. And I jokingly often say, as you can see, I've taken off the gloves. But I like wearing hats and I continue to wear it. When I ran for Congress and got to Washington, they made such a fuss about the hat instead of what was under it that I didn't know whether they wanted me to take it off or keep it on. I decided that they wanted me to take it off, which made me determined to keep it on.

One of my daughters went to law school. Her class had about 40% women, so it's also what they see. In the days when I practiced law, and I even went to court when I was pregnant, the lawyers were abusive, the judges didn't even know where to look, and even my clients thought I was going to lose the case. The culture was so different, you see. Today it's acceptable. The same thing goes for women in political office. When you don't see a critical mass, you don't see think about women as the main persons to run governments, to be presidents, to be governors, to be mayors, although in mayors we've improved a lot in numbers but not in governors and not in presidents. And in some foreign countries there's a greater tradition in that because [women who have power] are part of the family tradition. They're part of the culture. It's a tradition to have families running the government, including the women. But basically in the overwhelming parts of the world, including our own, it's still not a visually common occurrence, so as you build, it becomes more and more understandable and acceptable to have women.

In governments, in running businesses-- the major 500 corporations still don't have women-- They may have one, just one. So it's not only in government but in the economic arena and the general culture. More and more women are playing roles, but up to a certain level. They hit the glass ceiling at the managerial level or if they're poor and working under wretched conditions, they stay on the sticky floor. So it's a process which has taken a lot longer because there's too much gradualism. The period of the 60s and 70s showed a lot more progress than recent years because you get to a point where you learn how to deal with the system and then you get content if you don't get seduced or co-opted. To accept minima instead of maxima. So we now have this new stage where we've given centuries to males, and now we have to begin to insist on our participation side by side.

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